@sinabhfuil I’m not trying to be smart here, I am saying this based on my experience working as a city councillor. The problem is democracy (or at least our version of it). It’s far far easier to implement radical change when you a) don’t have to consult with groups who will be negatively affected by the change and b) don’t have to worry about getting re-elected.
@karlstanley The trouble with this is that the most effective workaround is populism
@karlstanley so how do you explain Switzerland?
@jernej i don’t know a whole lot about Switzerland - have they managed to square the circle of democratic consultation vs rapid rollout of new infrastructure? I’d be interested in finding out how they pulled that off, we haven’t a clue how to do it in Ireland.
@karlstanley So Switzerland has one of the best public transport systems in the world (it's rail system is probably the best, outside maybe Japan). It's also been built on a terrain that anyone would consider challenging.
On top of that, their rather unique political system offloads a lot of decision making into direct referendums (both on county, cantonal and federation level).
And yet... they still somehow managed.
@karlstanley I don't have an explanation either - after living here for awhile my theory is "These people are just strange and somehow want public transport to work.", but it's a pretty poor explanation ^^
@karlstanley @sinabhfuil The problem is not with democracy, it is with this version of democracy.
If you look at citizen assemblies output for example, it's a very different democratic process, with a very different outcome.
With the end of abundant/free energy, democratic processes will be under huge pressure with increasingly difficult choices on the horizon, and will have to adapt.
Well said, I live in a NA capital and our city is a urban sprawl. Unfortunately this means we've far extended suburbs whose citizens (based on voting patterns) seem to favour driving and usually end up tanking public transportation issues for those that actually live in the city core
@karlstanley @sinabhfuil yes, plus no health & safety laws. They’re able to build this fast partially because people get hurt and die in the process. If the trains are dangerous, the government can also suppress anyone talking about it. I don’t think there are many cases where you can use China as an example to follow. And that’s purely a criticism of the CCP, not the 5000+ yr old entity “China”. Maybe look somewhere not controlled by an authoritarian regime.
@kickstink @karlstanley Show me such a place that's building comparable rail infrastructure - though of course if working people are dying and the news suppressed that is atrocity
@karlstanley @sinabhfuil It’s worth noting that Ireland’s formerly extensive railway network was built when Ireland was… in the Empire. So consultation when building the network wasn’t much of an issue.
@kevinteljeur @karlstanley And Ireland's first telecommunications network was built along those rail lines because the land was owned by the State and so wayleaves weren't a problem
@kevinteljeur @karlstanley @sinabhfuil i really wish people would stop harking back to a imperial cattle transport system
@SimonB @kevinteljeur @sinabhfuil “imperial cattle transport system” genius - hadn’t thought of it in that light but you are bang on. A tool of colonial resource extraction, nothing more.
@karlstanley @SimonB @kevinteljeur Well, a *military* transport system mainly
@sinabhfuil @karlstanley @kevinteljeur
The deadly battle cows of the Royal Connacht regiment
@kevinteljeur @karlstanley @sinabhfuil Except the routes were forced by the local English lords. Quite often built not where it made sense, but where it was esthetically pleasing to them. Check e.g. the Dublin and Kingstown Railway, having a legitimate claim to be the oldest passenger route in the world. A lot of it is built within the sea cliff so that that it wouldn't spoil Lord Cloncurry's view.
@sinabhfuil @kevinteljeur @karlstanley Ha! Ok I was so used to everything around Dublin being opened by the English it did not occur to me to check.
@skolima @karlstanley @sinabhfuil That line is a very interesting and good example. I grew up next to it. We take that line for granted now but it erased a long stretch of coastline across South Dublin and ploughed through a lot more - could you do that now?
@kevinteljeur @skolima @karlstanley Oh no. That's all Dublin4Land now
@sinabhfuil @skolima @karlstanley But when they built it, wealth and power were concentrated on the North-central side of the city, if I’m not mistaken.
@kevinteljeur @skolima @karlstanley Yes, nobody bothered about those southside peasants then. It was only when "healthy air" became the fashion that the rich started building on the hillsides of the southside - Mount Tallant, Mount Drummond, Mount Jerome, etc. And in those days the stormy sea was a thing of horror. It was only in the Romantic Age that the sea became a romantic view and the rich built along the coast
@sinabhfuil @kevinteljeur @skolima this is why I love mastodon - I have accidentally learned something this morning. Thank you all!
@karlstanley @sinabhfuil @skolima Oh shit, I’m sorry! 
@sinabhfuil @skolima @karlstanley Aside: Railways then were symbolic of Imperialist Capitalism - the arteries of capital, and not as an enabling social good. So tearing through a neighbourhood was only for the good of the few. I wonder if that coloured the view of the early Irish State in how it saw railways.
Also: I grew up in a small flat in one of the biggest terraced old houses in Monkstown/Seapoint overlooking the railway and coast.
@kevinteljeur @skolima @karlstanley Well, yes, what was that remark of Todd Andrews' about the Harcourt Line being unnecessary because it was only for Rathmines Protestants, or something like that!
@kevinteljeur @sinabhfuil @skolima @karlstanley I think it was more about saving money and the state seeing a modern nation as one of private vehicles myself. Plus control - very few women could drive for a v long time. I'd say there's a lot could be written about the Church raging about days out to towns being immoral and govt attitudes to public transport in Ireland.
@kevinteljeur @sinabhfuil @skolima @karlstanley I remember once reading some bishops screed from the 1940s on how railways brought in immoral literature to places.
@siobhanmcelduff @kevinteljeur @sinabhfuil @skolima I didn’t know that, but it doesn’t surprise me in the least. Astonishing that we let those headbangers run the place for so long.
@karlstanley @kevinteljeur @sinabhfuil @skolima once the Church enters its hard to get it to leave - our education system being a good example.
@kevinteljeur @skolima @karlstanley A Monkstown tenement-dweller #nods
@sinabhfuil @skolima @karlstanley Ouch! The ‘housekeeper’ used to refer to tenements if there was ever any trouble or mess. I didn’t get it then but later on I understood better (it wasn’t a tenement, but a blood relative of them, let’s say)
@kevinteljeur @sinabhfuil @skolima that’s right, the most exclusive addresses in Dublin were Buckingham St and environs, near where I live now. I believe the 2 best houses in Dublin were Leinster House and Aldborough House (Portland Row) which is now vacant.
@karlstanley @kevinteljeur @skolima Don't start me on the national shame that is the beautiful Aldborough House. Someone please squat it and bring in An Taisce and the Georgian Society to join you
@sinabhfuil @kevinteljeur @skolima 
I have genuine fears that it will mysteriously burn to the ground one day.
@karlstanley One of the objections that the worried middle class make against bike lanes is "How will ambulances and fire brigade get to people if the ROAD IS BLOCKED BY A CYCLE LANE?"
#CycleLanes #EmergencyVehicles
This is how
#fcknzs @sinabhfuil @karlstanley This is in The Netherlands where did you get this video?
That seems a rather silly and insincere concern.
In the US (where I'm from) it's the law that your must pull over for emergency vehicles. In SE Asia (where I live now) the culture is slowly changing to pull over.
Like the video you showed, most cyclists I've seen readily pull over.
@Jeramee @karlstanley It's a nonsensical concern - but it *is* a good reason to make cycle lanes broad enough to give emergency vehicles travelling in emergencies a clear run through the city
I think in Berlin the cyclists would have blocked the bike lane, to stand for their right to be there...
@sinabhfuil
In Paris they achieved about 7 minutes faster times to action due to more and better bike lanes.
@sinabhfuil I think we could do better if our politicians tried to lead, rather than seeing which way the wind is blowing and working out how to upset the smallest number of people. Unfortunately 100 years of our system is going to be hard to unwind and I don’t have a good answer for how to do that.
It’s frustrating - we are in an existential crisis and delayed action is no good. The climate won’t wait for us to reach consensus, it will just kill us while we hold consultations.
@karlstanley @sinabhfuil In an environment like Mastodon, where there's so many liberals and anarchists, it feels like a mistake to expect politicians to lead rather than administrate. Truer leadership needs to come from civil society. The politicians aren't going to "lead" unless we get active, get behind them, and push.
@DrDanMarshall @sinabhfuil this politician agrees. Vote left, transfer left!
@karlstanley @DrDanMarshall Or vote Green transfer left or vice versa
@sinabhfuil @DrDanMarshall crucially let’s finally finally finally put FF and FG in the bin. They have had 100 years in power between them, we deserve a break!
@sinabhfuil one slightly more prosaic point. China’s railways are book to ride on the high speed and are generally full up at a good price point that is vastly cheaper than air so given the dispersal of people it’s well supported. That is the major issue the UK needs to address. Trains are expensive. To build, run and use. Obviously @seatsixtyone is the guru on that.
@sinabhfuil china’s train network is fantastic. The passport being your ticket threw me but the trains are fantastic.
@sinabhfuil They cover an small part of Chinese territory, which is consistent with China's underdeveloped infrastructures and lack of energy sources. Planned economy has systemic deficiencies and it fails time and time agait.
@sinabhfuil To be fair, there was some coverage in the Swiss (and European?) media.
@sinabhfuil @feijoa Part of it is probably with China’s particular brand of capitalism you always try to meet growth targets by just having extreme amounts of economic activity by doing infrastructure projects, often regardless of if that infrastructure is truly needed.
Anyway, between US infrastructure neglect and China’s overbuilding the middle ground of building railway that is actually needed exists (and is probably better demonstrated by some other countries).
@torb @sinabhfuil @feijoa We actually have a word for the phenomenon: 基建狂魔 (lit. "infrastructure monster"). Also, local officials attract these projects to show off (though I suppose that's similar to the rest of the world).
Of course, how the labour for building these infrastructure is treated remains to be discussed...
Japan is probably the middle ground here (at least in terms of railways).
@austin @torb @sinabhfuil @feijoa
Hokkaido is the same size as Ireland yet only has one high speed líne connecting to the rest of Japan, no internal high speed lines, and many cities not rail connected
And Shinkansen lines started in 1964
@ColmDonoghue @torb @sinabhfuil @feijoa I meant Japan in general… But also JR Hokkaido has been operating at a serious loss and standard lines are being abandoned in favour of buses. Like in other countries, population density is quite low in rural Japan, though the effect is not as pronounced as in other regions as profits from a large urban area tend to subsidize costs in rural areas. Anyways, they’re still building the Shinkansen to Sapporo...
@sinabhfuil we've been told multiple times there simply isn't money in the budget. /s
@numbercrow China is good at budgets and realises that having really good public transport is excellent value