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#amoc

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❄️Between the last glacial maximum & today, humans were exposed to severely rising sea levels 🌊 & recurrent phases of strong abrupt cooling events.🥶 #MPIM researchers have uncovered the origin of these strong temperature fluctuations over the past 20,000 years using a novel coupled climate-ice sheet model. They found that #iceberg armadas 🧊🧊🧊 & changed river courses were responsible for #AMOC weakening & abrupt cooling.
mpimet.mpg.de/en/communication
CC BY 3.0 Ziemen et al. 2025 doi.org/10.5446/69659

On our way to 2100, the continued AMOC weakening leads to less and less CO2 uptake. (Which increases social cost of carbon, SCC)
pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2419
"Weakening AMOC reduces ocean carbon uptake and increases the social cost of carbon" by Schaumann et al 2025.
They combine a geochemical model with a freshwater hosing model and then watch how many CO2 molecules manage to sink to the ocean floor in which warming scenario.

German #scicomm summary:
nachrichten.idw-online.de/2025

*****
Hm. Is that it for the hope for 0 additional warming soon after emissions have stopped. Because that hope is based on how the oceans are assumed to keep removing CO2 from the atmo for a while after zero emissions is achieved.

The slowing #AMOC at its Northernmost branch used to do the heavy lifting in carbon removal via the forklift of temperature and salinity, that's how I read the paper.

Come to think of it, the wind "around" Antarctica is picking up speed due to #climatechange. This wind pulls up water from the deep Southern Ocean and is thus also part of the AMOC, a part projected to speed up, not slow down. Yay.
But.
Pulling up deep water faster also pulls up the old carbon faster which was transported there by the AMOC.
So...uhm, does this increased wind-driven carbon upwelling intensify the effect of the ever-reduced carbon removal by the slowing AMOC?
I bet, this would be visible in #paleoclimate data around the Younger Dryas. Eg, pairing the Greenland annual temperature time series and annual Antarctic CO2 record.
If correct then I'd expect: just before the AMOC collapse, when Greenland still heats up, CO2 growth should increase. And when AMOC slows down, when Greenland starts cooling, the annual growth in CO2 should further intensify.
Unless... hm. The re-cooling also buries a lot of soil and plants under new ice in Scandinavia and Canada. Could be, this process balances the otherwise expected growth increase.Hm.

Going to look at it tomorrow. Am again completely in awe that we do have annually resolved Greenland temperature and Antarctic CO2 levels all the way back to the previous interglacial!!

Die Abschwächung der Nordatlantischen Umwälzströmung (#AMOC) könnte bis 2100 wirtschaftliche Schäden in Billionenhöhe verursachen.

Eine schwächere Strömung bindet naturgemäß weniger #CO2 im Ozean, was die #Erderwärmung weiter verstärkt. Dadurch steigen die gesellschaftlichen Kosten durch #Extremwetter wie #Hitze, #Dürre und #Überschwemmungen. Die Folgen wurden bisher wohl unterschätzt.

uni-hamburg.de/newsroom/forsch

Universität Hamburg · Schwächere Meeresströmung könnte Billionen kostenBy Newsroom-Redaktion

Schwächere Meeresströmung = Billionenkosten? ⚠️Eine #AMOC-Abschwächung senkt die #CO₂-Aufnahme des Ozeans, verstärkt die #Erderwärmung & treibt Kosten in die Höhe - das fanden die Forscher @felixschaumann & @Edu_Alastrue in ihrer neuen Studie heraus. In diesem short Wissen-Was-Video fasst Carolin Riethmüller das Wichtigste für Euch zusammen (2:45 min) ▶️ (@MPI_Meteo 🔗 youtu.be/BoNA-C7fFoI?feature=s

Jet streams are fast flowing, narrow air currents. The main jet streams flow west to east around the globe.

Because of #climate collapse, the northern polar jet stream becomes more variable. A stratospheric polar vortex disruption is linked with extreme cold winter weather across parts of Asia and North America, including the Feb. 2021 North American cold wave. Report: bbc.com/news/science-environme

Anyway, #AMOC (the main ocean current system in the Atlantic Ocean) currently offers 12°C to Ireland:

#FYI #PaulBeckwith video lecture and literature review #AMOC #AmocShutdown

"- wind driven flow of water in the Southern Hemisphere would keep the AMOC flow slightly above zero
- havoc would still be wreaked on the Earth
- this new paper is not in disagreement with previous work, but adds to our understanding of the AMOC"

youtube.com/watch?v=T8rj117OvAI

@rahmstorf

Did the wind-driven parts stop during deglaciation before the #Holocene?
#YoungerDryas
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_

I guess not.
Would Marotzke or Latif say, AMOC "collapsed" back then?

I heard oceanographer Mojib Latif say on German radio & TV, he doesn't see #AMOC having a tipping point at all. Is the wind thingy the semantic reason for such an opinion?

en.wikipedia.orgYounger Dryas - Wikipedia
Replied in thread

@tuxom

Dazu schreibt Rahmstorf, weil er sich nämlich fragt, wie das neue #AMOC Paper wohl in den Medien nacherzählt wird... realclimate.org/index.php/arch

"It’s essentially a discussion about semantics, not physics. Do you call it an AMOC collapse if a weak and shallow wind-driven overturning persists after the thermohaline part has collapsed? Or not?"

Ich setze noch einen drauf:
ist es überhaupt noch eine Zirkulation, wenn nur noch der Wind-getriebene Teil der AMOC läuft?

Wenn nur noch der Wind für ein Mischen des Oberflächenwasser sorgt, entsteht ja kein Ozean-getriebener Nordwärts-Sog der Oberflächenwärme mehr, und kein südwärts strömendes Tiefenwasser.
Das kann man ja dann nicht mehr Zirkulation nennen.

Es ist dann fast schon nur noch Glücksache, ob der Wind von Washington ausgehend schnurgerade den Atlantik überquert oder mal Richtung Norwegen weht und uns warme Luft bringt.
Anstatt wie die Garantie heute, dass warme Luft auch im Winter durch die Zirkulation zu uns kommt, in der das abgekühlte aber schwere salzige Wasser bei Grönland und Island absinkt und so Wassermassen aus dem warmen Süden hinter sich her ziehen.

RealClimate | Climate science from climate scientists... · RealClimate: How will media report on this new AMOC study?RealClimate: I’ve been getting a lot of media queries about a new paper on the AMOC, which has just been published. In my view this large media interest is perhaps due to confusing messages conveyed in the title of the paper and in press releases about it by the journal Nature and by the Met Office.

#talkcollapse:

"A total #AMOC collapse is unlikely this century. But even weakened currents would cause profound harm to humanity. 'In the short term, it doesn’t really matter if we have a strong weakening, say 80%, or a collapse.'"

But at least the headline is unrealistically encouraging :)
theguardian.com/environment/20

The Guardian · Total collapse of vital Atlantic currents unlikely this century, study findsBy Damian Carrington

"What previous studies have labelled an ‘AMOC collapse’ is now called ‘no collapse’. It’s essentially a discussion about semantics, not physics. Do you call it an AMOC collapse if a weak and shallow wind-driven overturning persists after the thermohaline part has collapsed? Or not?"
realclimate.org/index.php/arch

Rahmstorf about the new #AMOC paper misleadingly titled "Continued Atlantic overturning circulation even under climate extremes" nature.com/articles/s41586-024

Good to know.
Now I think that maybe Jochem Marotzke, cli-sci at the Max Planck Institute for Meteorology in Hamburg, also applies semantics when he says that collapse can't occur – and in a new sentence then explains the fact that the Gulf Stream is purely wind-driven and will never shut down.
If this is his only argument against "AMOC Collapse", it's a weak one.
But I also heard him say something like, that the freshwater input isn't available that's required for making AMOC react like in #paleoclimate .

***
We do know how much water comes today from Greenland, from the Alpes and from Canada's remaining glaciers.
And compared to what melted during the last deglaciation, it's a tiny amount.

But we don't know how much more it rains on the Northern #Atlantic ocean compared to pre-Holocene times when it was so much colder up there in the North.
We don't even know how much it rains in the AMOC-relevant regions today.

Also, ice models for the deglaciation do differ a lot in the AMOC-relevant regions, both for land-bound ice and #seaice, if they even bother to model sea ice at all.

RealClimate | Climate science from climate scientists... · RealClimate: How will media report on this new AMOC study?RealClimate: I’ve been getting a lot of media queries about a new paper on the AMOC, which has just been published. In my view this large media interest is perhaps due to confusing messages conveyed in the title of the paper and in press releases about it by the journal Nature and by the Met Office.